The Imposters

We're tackling the enigma of imposter syndrome. That sneaky voice in your head saying, 'You're out of your depth'—we're exposing it. 

The twist: is imposter syndrome all bad, or does it hold unexpected insights? 

Join us for a candid chat filled with personal stories, as we unravel this complex and sometimes irrational feeling. 

It's a journey through self-doubt, and we're here to navigate it together.

Find out more at designtherapy.com.au

Transcript

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- [Justin] Hey, I'm Justin.- [Steve] Hey, I'm Steve.- [Trixie] Hey, I'm Trixie, and welcome to Design Therapy.- [Trixie] Every month, we're chatting to our friends in the design community, and they'll share personal stories, their careers in tech, and what's happening in the design industry.- [Justin] Today, we'll be talking about imposter syndrome in the workplace, exploring its definition, our own experiences, and how it can either cripple or fuel us for the better.- [Justin] Steve and Trixie back with another month of design therapy.- [Justin] It's just family this episode.- [Justin] Are you guys ready?- [Steve] Group chat!- [Trixie] Group chat!- [Justin] Hey!- [Trixie] Hey!- [Justin] Did you plan that?- [Justin] I was like, what the fuck?- [Justin] You've been talking, you have my back, huh?- [Steve] No, I think... We've been talking about how exciting it would be just for the three of us to have a yarn.- [Steve] We've always had to bring someone in and there's always the process of figuring out the style that clicks and then doing a couple of practice rounds, whereas with the three of us, I don't know.- [Steve] I'm hoping that it's going to be much more natural and easy just to get started.- [Trixie] Yes.- [Trixie] We're respectful people, but also I think it's good to have some candor between us as well.- [Steve] But today we thought about a couple of topics that we wanted to chat about as a group, but then we landed on something that I guess we've been hearing a bit within our chapter as a design chapter, and that is this imposter syndrome.- [Steve] And the first time I think it came to light was when one of your designers, Trixie, who actually presented her story at one of our, I guess, sharing forums.- [Trixie] Mm-hmm.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Steve] And it resonated with a lot of us.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Trixie] I mean, I can tell you a little bit more about how that came about.- [Trixie] So essentially one of the people that worked in my team, I'm so extremely proud of the experience that they've had.- [Trixie] And it was a bit of an encouragement to say, Hey, you should share that with the team, mainly because your experience will resonate.- [Trixie] And anyone who's thinking of kind of just jumping the ship from a perspective of rethinking the way that they work and their role within the team.- [Trixie] might kind of relate, but she had some reservations in sharing mainly because she didn't feel qualified enough to talk about this with a wider group.- [Trixie] And the funny thing is specifically what she was talking about is that she's a specialist UI designer and she had some amazing experience in being a product designer, which obviously from a perspective of practice, that's a skillset that she had to learn.- [Trixie] that's completely different of what she knows day to day.- [Trixie] She went through the proper processes of learning through other UX designers, the part of design that she didn't really know about in being a product designer.- [Trixie] So with encouragement from a couple of us, not only myself, but also some UX designers as well, she obviously spoke about her experience.- [Trixie] But the thing that resonated the most with our team is the idea of not necessarily feeling like you're a hundred percent confident or you have the skill set, but giving it a go and actually making the jump in the leap to do so.- [Trixie] So I think her talking about that to the rest of the team really had resonated.- [Justin] So, listening to what you just described to me, I'm wondering, is that imposter syndrome?- [Justin] Because that doesn't sound like imposter syndrome to me.- [Justin] That sounds like someone who is new to what is learning, a new skill set, and has identified that there are gaps that they need to learn more about, basically.- [Justin] I don't think that sounds like imposter syndrome.- [Steve] It's a really interesting point, right?- [Steve] Okay, so if I take myself and look at my past where I felt or thought that I had imposter syndrome, there was two cases that I can remember.- [Steve] So number one, it was when I transitioned, I come from a, I guess, graphic design and UI background and transitioned into UX.- [Steve] So when I made that formal jump, that was the first time that I felt a little bit fish out of water.- [Steve] And then the second time was when I jumped from, I guess, working with my peers to leading them and becoming their manager.- [Steve] And that was the second time I had that really strong feeling of, holy shit, I don't know what I'm doing.- [Steve] So in those cases, Justin, I guess there's a bit of where there's obviously a learning curve that I'm yet to go through.- [Steve] I'm aware of that.- [Steve] And is that imposter syndrome or is it just a symptom of me not yet having the right skills?- [Steve] Because I've just started my journey.- [Trixie] I feel like from a perspective of what you're talking about and my experience with how she was really reserved in sharing her knowledge because she didn't feel qualified to talk about it in a wider forum.- [Trixie] In each of us, it feels like this idea of imposter syndrome really personifies in a very different way across everyone.- [Trixie] And so that's why I guess it's something that kind of related to a lot of people.- [Trixie] So for example, your examples of how you felt or when you felt imposter syndrome, Even though I definitely agree.- [Trixie] it's examples of imposter syndrome, I have very distinct other examples of imposter syndrome myself.- [Trixie] But it'd be great to kind of unpack that and see what brings out this idea of imposter syndrome amongst us and the people in our team, or what doesn't?- [Trixie] Because, I don't know, Justin, have you felt this feeling of imposter syndrome?- [Steve] How would you classify that from your perspective?- [Justin] One, I don't know your experience.- [Justin] You gave a very high overview, so I don't know how you expect me to classify that.- [Justin] But I think the circumstance that you mentioned, especially the first one, you were pretty much changing careers almost.- [Justin] You were changing disciplines.- [Justin] The second one could be seen kind of similarly.- [Justin] You're going from a practitioner to a management role.- [Justin] Again, this is new.- [Justin] And then I think if you look at it from the stages of competence, you're consciously incompetent.- [Steve] are consciously incompetent.- [Justin] Yeah, yeah, exactly.- [Justin] So you're aware that there are gaps that you need to fill.- [Justin] You're aware that there is a skill set that you haven't mastered.- [Steve] Yeah.- [Steve] And I'm aware I haven't had that experience.- [Justin] Yeah, exactly.- [Justin] So I don't see that as imposter syndrome.- [Justin] My definition of what I believe is imposter syndrome, and I hope it's the right one, is when you are skilled, you have the experience, people come to you for your expertise.- [Justin] But you do not acknowledge, it's objectively recognized that you are an expert in that area, or you are able to speak on whatever topic.- [Justin] It's when you have that self-doubt, even though you have the skill set.- [Justin] And what it seems like you were introducing to me was you were learning a new skill set.- [Justin] So I don't see that as imposter syndrome.- [Justin] And I feel like it's one of those psychological terms that is term de jour.- [Justin] People just figure it out and hear it.- [Steve] They just generalized it.- [Justin] And then they just put it on their experience.- [Justin] It's the same things like gaslighting.- [Justin] Everyone's been gaslit all of a sudden.- [Justin] So I feel like imposter syndrome is similar.- [Justin] I don't think it's truly imposter syndrome.- [Justin] I feel like it's people playing armchair psychologists, which is, I guess, what we do every month.- [Steve] Well, I guess it is semantics, but then I guess people maybe are searching for a way to define how they're feeling in order to, I guess, either overcome or find ways to broach it.- [Steve] And maybe without actually talking to a therapist, and we are definitely not those, maybe the word imposter syndrome have very general connections to things like anxiety, lack of confidence, And maybe it's amplified by the fact that you are actually conscious of it.- [Justin] But you're talking about semantics.- [Justin] Semantics are important because we're talking about a psychological concept and using that to label the way we feel and trying to find ways to overcome that feeling through that label, I guess.- [Justin] So I'm saying I have imposter syndrome.- [Justin] I'm going to look up how I can be helped or how I can help myself.- [Justin] And there's danger in doing that.- [Steve] I think it's very grey.- [Steve] So even in my examples now reflecting on it, right?- [Steve] Often when you're not feeling secure about, say, how you're performing, a lot of typical responses, people say, well, you were high for a reason.- [Steve] And I think there's some truth in that.- [Steve] So the fact that when I jumped ship to UX formally, it doesn't mean that I started from scratch.- [Steve] There was still a lot of experiences I've had in my tenure as visual and UI designers, which were applicable to UX.- [Steve] And similarly, when I made the change from senior to a lead, I think there's also a lot of that similar notion where as a senior, I was very comfortable communicating.- [Steve] There were already skills that I was, I guess, gaining in terms of how to give critique or how to give feedback and how to kind of influence the strategic direction of certain products.- [Steve] And therefore, maybe what I was feeling, you can probably categorize as impulsive syndrome being that there are traits that I had which made me right for the role, but I basically still had a lot of growth to go.- [Justin] How did that, I guess, make you feel?- [Steve] I felt like I was completely out of my depth.- [Steve] That's the nuance, maybe.- [Steve] It's that I felt way more out of my depth than now.- [Steve] looking back, what was probably more objectively untrue.- [Justin] Are you talking about your experience as going to leadership or going to UX?- [Steve] Probably a bit of both.- [Steve] I think both.- [Justin] Okay, because I guess what I would want to know is how that has shifted or what was the journey?- [Justin] You would have obviously applied for the roles.- [Justin] How did you feel when you were applying?- [Justin] Did you feel you were prepared?- [Justin] And then what was the reality of when you stepped into the other role, the way that you felt making the transition?- [Steve] So maybe transition to UX was a bit informal.- [Steve] I don't think I really apply for is more rolling of a contract.- [Steve] I said, I wanted this position.- [Steve] Now, my response to that is I think it's a lot easier in hindsight to now reflect back on what skillsets I had and to tell my past self that, hey, you were more ready than you had felt immediately after.- [Steve] Because of the first six months after that, I was like, holy shit, do I really know what I'm doing now that I'm an experienced designer?- [Steve] Because I thought I understood UX, but I could see so much gap that I still need to quickly catch up on.- [Steve] But then now I reflect back on that, I'm like, yes, and you still actually had a lot of good traits and experiences that made you stand out or that made you qualify for the role and all you had to do was focus on your gaps.- [Steve] But I couldn't see the wood from the trees back then.- [Steve] I just felt a sense of overwhelming inferiority when I compared myself.- [Steve] And of course, comparing yourself to anyone who's a seasoned designer is a terrible thing to do.- [Steve] But I felt a huge inferiority complex, which led to, I think, this feeling of anxiety or impostor, kind of like, am I up for the task?- [Steve] And could I even call myself a senior?- [Trixie] I'm getting flashbacks of Steve's episode one of this season of going into the well of despair with Steve.- [Trixie] Before we get too heavy into that, I'm actually quite curious, Justin, have you felt this way yourself?- [Trixie] Because I know myself, I'm happy to share my experiences of feeling this way, because I think it's quite unique to Steve's and obviously we've heard about Steve's, but how about you, Justin?- [Trixie] Have you felt this way before?- [Justin] Yeah, look, it's interesting because I think it's more of knowing that I had gaps and if I felt anxiety or any feelings of inferiority, as Steve put it, I think that was the stem.- [Justin] I was stepping into new roles or trying something new and that's where that feeling came from.- [Trixie] You never felt like you didn't deserve something.- [Trixie] You leaned more into the idea of, okay, I know I have room to grow and things that I need to learn, but it was less about feeling like, oh, actually.- [Steve] I'm not good enough.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Justin] This is why I'm saying I guess it's a bit of a combination and why I wouldn't purely call it imposter syndrome, because I did have that base skill set, Steve, like yourself, what you referred to.- [Justin] So I think I was just very conscious that I didn't know everything.- [Justin] It wasn't objectively that I was a highly skilled individual and I couldn't recognize that in myself.- [Justin] That's imposter syndrome.- [Justin] That wasn't the case.- [Justin] So a good example that I would have is maybe when I was working on the startup when I was in Spain, which we talked about it on the first episode of the podcast, which was we created this app and I designed this app.- [Justin] But when I really felt out of my depth was.- [Justin] When we were going to conferences, when we were speaking to VCs and we were asking for funding, that was really anxiety inducing.- [Justin] Same with speaking to lawyers when we were dealing with some of the stuff around that.- [Justin] Very difficult also, but there were so many aspects, right?- [Justin] Like it was a foreign language in some things.- [Justin] So there was an aspect of that which made communication more difficult.- [Justin] And I was very aware of how much more difficult it was for myself.- [Justin] And then in terms of speaking to VCs and stuff, I think with that, it was more adrenaline kicked in more than anything else.- [Justin] It was kind of do or die.- [Justin] So I really had to just be as confident as possible and execute.- [Justin] Reflecting when we were trying to prepare for this episode, because I haven't felt it in a while.- [Justin] I was like, well, why is that?- [Justin] And I think it comes from having experiences like that, which was so heightened.- [Justin] And then when I'm going to the corporate environment, I'm like, well, this is a piece of cake.- [Justin] I'm like, I'm not going to sweat this.- [Justin] I don't know.- [Steve] Would you categorize what your feelings were more just anxiety and you'd be more comfortable labeling it as say anxiety or nervousness as opposed to imposter syndrome?- [Justin] Yes, I think it was that.- [Justin] I think I genuinely was not as capable as I should have been to be in the position I was in and I knew it.- [Trixie] Hmm.- [Trixie] In terms of coming at it in a different angle for me, when I stepped into a leadership role, I stepped into the leadership role and gaining new peers from people that I've worked with over years and years who they were leads, even when I was barely a baby mid.- [Trixie] And so stepping into that room with these people who have years of experience, I was very similar to you, Justin, where I knew I had a lot of room to grow and obviously I needed experience.- [Trixie] However, just being in that room was extremely anxiety-inducing and I would say that imposter syndrome kicked in because I knew I had the skills and the capability to make a difference and I was confident in that.- [Trixie] However, stepping into the room where A lot more people have had a lot more years of experience, and with experience we know that that comes with capability, and you learn how to do something better just by being there for a longer period of time.- [Trixie] For me, it's like, oh, these people have seen my journey through the same company, and they've seen me when I was barely able to put two designs together.- [Trixie] that didn't look like absolute trash.- [Trixie] Are they going to see me in that way in terms of the experiences that they've had with me when I was a baby mid to like a senior which I wasn't at the top of my game yet to now being a lead that's coming in?- [Trixie] Would they see me as someone that is capable even though I know the growth that I've had in myself?- [Trixie] I think, for me, that's where my imposter syndrome kicked in, where I think it was more so.- [Trixie] I was a lot more aware of what other people might perceive, even though that probably isn't what they see.- [Trixie] I don't know, Steve.- [Trixie] When I walked into the room, were you like, oh, Trixie's in.- [Trixie] Is she okay?- [Steve] Not at all.- [Steve] And I think if we were to look at the definition, I'll just pull up on Google now, right?- [Steve] So imposter syndrome is a condition of feeling anxious and not experience success internally, despite being high performing in external objective ways.- [Steve] This condition often results in people feeling like a fraud or a phony and doubting their abilities.- [Steve] And what you described to me there feels very in line with that where You're high-performing objectively.- [Steve] You're obviously a very highly skilled designer.- [Steve] Yet in that room, you felt other leads could judge you as either a fraud or not experienced or not good enough to be deserving in that room.- [Trixie] Yes.- [Trixie] Full disclosure, no one made me feel that way from that sort of perspective, but I felt really small.- [Steve] Right.- [Steve] That's why it's called a syndrome, right?- [Trixie] Yes.- [Steve] It's something internally you've told yourself or you've basically raised.- [Trixie] Yes.- [Justin] Hearing you speak, Steve, and then you, Trixie, what I'm hearing is that's common between both your stories is the comparison.- [Justin] So Steve, you said, oh, I compared to the people who were in that position and Trixie, you're saying, oh, they were these leads with so much more experience than I had.- [Justin] And that's where that feeling is coming from.- [Justin] It's almost like putting your coworkers on pedestals.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Trixie] And I still continue to do that, honestly.- [Trixie] I think another example of my imposter syndrome kind of kicking in, and this is going to be really insightful for the people who are in my team or coming into my team, where sometimes, man, I have such trust and respect for the people in my team, especially the seniors that I have.- [Trixie] I think we put a lot of faith and trust in the work that our seniors do within the team because they're highly skilled individuals.- [Trixie] And for me, another time where my imposter syndrome kicks in is that the people that I work with, I see as my peers, especially the seniors.- [Trixie] And sometimes I feel like, oh, I'm managing these people.- [Trixie] I'm managing their development where their development kind of supersedes mine.- [Trixie] So to your point, Justin, I'm absolutely putting these people on a pedestal, like yourself, people like yourself.- [Trixie] And you guys are amazing practitioners.- [Trixie] And I feel like such a weird strangeness sometimes that even though I know from a management perspective, I have got that skill set.- [Trixie] However, from a practicality sort of sense or the practice sense, I absolutely feel so intimidated by the amount of practical knowledge that the people that I manage have.- [Trixie] So I think that's also another kind of example that I kind of struggle with a lot of the time as well.- [Steve] And I actually think what you described there, Trixie, is also definitely a variation of imposter syndrome.- [Trixie] Got it all around.- [Trixie] I'm just a well of imposter syndrome right here.- [Steve] Some of what I went through now, I could see you can probably classify as just general nervous nodal anxiety because you're just new to something or you're training parts that you haven't done before.- [Steve] So when I became an official lead, I had already acted in that role for nine months.- [Steve] So it wasn't like I hadn't had.- [Steve] hands-on experience already.- [Steve] So then maybe it was less about knowing that I didn't have that experience but maybe more so it was just general anxiety or nervousness or maybe touch my personality, less so imposter syndrome for that lead example.- [Steve] But then regardless of whether it is or whether it's not, right, ultimately, I guess, being consciously aware that something is off is really important.- [Steve] And this is why I think it's the silver lining about imposter syndrome that enables us to kind of feel like there's some gap rather than being unconsciously incompetent.- [Justin] Yes.- [Justin] Yes.- [Justin] Ignorance is bliss for yourself, not for anyone around you.- [Justin] But I guess we've dwelled on the semantics, as you put it, and what's imposter syndrome, what's not.- [Justin] But Trixie, what I really want to know is how you're dealing with the feelings that you have and how you're, I guess, trying to overcome that to help you become a better lead.- [Trixie] Yeah, it's a funny one because I think when I started kind of noting these examples down and I really started thinking about it, I'm going to be completely honest and say that I don't do anything about it necessarily because I think it's a thing that you learn that is good or you just overcome with time and experience.- [Trixie] And I think this is where you kind of have to decide in yourself whether or not this is something that's completely debilitating.- [Trixie] or whether or not it's something that you just know is a way that you work as a person, and that's okay.- [Trixie] And in hindsight, you're actually going to see with experience, no, I was fine exactly where I was.- [Trixie] And the feeling that I get is that, no, I'm not an imposter because I'm doing what I'm doing and others are doing what they're doing.- [Trixie] And that's not going to really necessarily affect me in the way that I do things.- [Trixie] Like people are going to not step back just because you're leading them or you're in the position that you're in.- [Trixie] I think everyone kind of goes through their own way and their own track.- [Trixie] But as long as this feeling of imposter syndrome, whatever it is, isn't a debilitating thing, I don't necessarily think I feel like I need to do anything about it.- [Justin] Well, I guess it's not doing something about it in terms of...- [Trixie] Do I need to see someone about it or talk to someone about it?- [Justin] Yeah, not active.- [Justin] I guess the question would be more, you're having these feelings, how do you push them to the side?- [Justin] Or what are you telling yourself to?- [Justin] just be like, oh, well, fuck it.- [Justin] I'm doing great.- [Trixie] I think it's exactly what you said before, right?- [Trixie] Even if you didn't acknowledge it as an imposter syndrome moment for you, I have a very similar thought in that it's sink or swim.- [Trixie] You just got to get on with the job.- [Trixie] Whether or not these things are in my head, they could be at any one time.- [Trixie] Every time I talk to the people that I hold on this pedestal, whether it be other leads or people in my team, I just got to get on with my job.- [Trixie] It's not going to change the way that I do things just because I'm feeling doubtful in that moment.- [Trixie] Because I think that's where it's going to eat at you.- [Trixie] If you let these thoughts debilitate you and change the way that you conduct yourself, I think that's where it becomes a problem.- [Trixie] So I let it float in my head and that's okay.- [Trixie] As long as it doesn't affect the way that I experience things and put myself in situations, then I think it's okay.- [Justin] Wasn't there that quote by the CEO that told her staff, you can visit pity city, but don't live there?- [Justin] And she didn't give them bonuses.- [Justin] That's all that came to my head when you were saying that.- [Justin] You know what?- [Trixie] I resonate with that.- [Trixie] That should be on a t-shirt.- [Trixie] I would totally wear that.- [Justin] It's a good one.- [Justin] Yeah.- [Steve] Trixie and I, I think, come from a more similar hindsight in that we're more glass half empty when it comes to, I think, judging who we are.- [Trixie] Speak for yourself, man.- [Trixie] I'm a glass half full girly.- [Trixie] I love positive affirmations.- [Steve] But I think I want to ask the same question to Justin because I want to know how he deals with setbacks.- [Steve] Because Justin, in my opinion, from what I've observed, he just kind of seems to take it all in his stride.- [Steve] Very little phases him.- [Steve] And even though you mentioned a couple of these experiences during your startup phase where you felt like you had to kind of, I guess, fight or flight.- [Steve] How do you find yourself dealing with that scenario?- [Trixie] It's a million-dollar question, actually.- [Trixie] I'm sure that a lot of people would want to know this, because Justin, he's a vibe, basically, in terms of confidentness and assertiveness and candour.- [Trixie] Don't get shy now, Justin.- [Justin] How can I feel imposter syndrome when this is the type of thing I'm going to be booked on?- [Steve] Let's just throw it all out there.- [Steve] When we first talked about this topic, imposter syndrome, Justin was the first one to be like, I've never felt this.- [Justin] I don't know what that is.- [Trixie] The hype.- [Trixie] We're feeding it right now.- [Justin] I mean, it's a good question because I don't really think about it day to day, which is why I mentioned these feelings were when I had this really heightened situation.- [Justin] It's almost surreal that I was in that situation.- [Justin] I moved to Spain.- [Justin] And I was like, fuck it.- [Justin] I'm not going to be a designer anymore.- [Justin] I'm going to teach English.- [Justin] And then how many months later I'm asking for funding in Portugal with VCs from fucking France.- [Justin] And I'm just like, how did I get in this position?- [Justin] So that's crazy, right?- [Justin] And then now I work in corporate back in my home country and it's just not comparable.- [Trixie] It's never really that bad.- [Steve] The question was at that point in time, though, in Spain, trying to sell to VCs, you knew that you were inexperienced.- [Steve] I guess, are you saying that at that point in time, you just didn't even have time to dwell on it because things were so action-packed and biased to action that you had no time to reflect whether or not you were even deserving to be there?- [Justin] Yes.- [Justin] I think that's definitely probably fair.- [Trixie] It's a sink or swim, right?- [Justin] It is.- [Trixie] It's the thing that you just have to get on with this.- [Trixie] You can live in Pity City.- [Steve] But nothing's made you go into Pity City or visited the walls of Pity City, Jonathan.- [Justin] Oh yeah, yeah, when it crumbled, then I was in pity city, right?- [Justin] But again, this is why that moment, it was sink or swim, and that's how I got through it.- [Justin] That's the only way to kind of explain it, is if we didn't get some type of funding, we would have folded sooner than we did.- [Steve] And then when you failed, what about when you failed to get any funding?- [Justin] Well, in the end, when we failed, it wasn't due to funding.- [Justin] It was due to internal conflict.- [Steve] Yes.- [Steve] As folks on this podcast would listen to on the very first episode.- [Justin] Yes.- [Justin] I think because of the way it ended, it wasn't due to my skillset in that area, which was design.- [Justin] The role that I played, that was not the reason it folded.- [Justin] I guess I wasn't actively involved in the rift that caused it folding either.- [Justin] So part of me at that time admonished all responsibility.- [Justin] I was kind of like, well, I didn't do anything wrong, blah, blah, blah.- [Justin] But if I'm honest, there was the other part, which was like, well, I should have been more clued in.- [Justin] I should have seen earlier warning signs for a lot of things.- [Justin] If I was better at reading people, or maybe if I was more involved in other areas than I was, I would have seen some of the issues coming up before they did.- [Justin] But again, that's not imposter syndrome.- [Steve] Yeah, no, I just gotta keep prodding at this.- [Steve] So, okay, let's go to the other topic then about comparisons.- [Steve] Since joining corporate life, that also hasn't been something that you could speak to where you felt either your peers or other people around you might have stuff that maybe in your mind that's never come across you.- [Steve] Yeah.- [Steve] I'm just curious on how your take is.- [Justin] Yeah, not totally true.- [Justin] So one, I didn't jump straight into corporate after that happened.- [Justin] I did some freelancing and then I was in a software development agency.- [Justin] And there was elements of, I think, imposter syndrome.- [Justin] when I was in that previous position, which was I think definitely after what happened in Spain, regardless of imposter syndrome, my confidence was hit.- [Justin] It was a big blow professionally.- [Justin] I felt like my career was fucked when that happened.- [Justin] I was like, oh fuck, I have to go back to my country and start from where I left off, which it wasn't the case, but that was a feeling that kind of permeated and it was difficult to shake and then it was almost consulting.- [Justin] So we would have these meetings with clients and what they wanted or what we were giving them was quite technical in some cases.- [Justin] It wasn't just design.- [Justin] We were building the products that they wanted to make.- [Justin] So I would be in these meetings and the people, I was with another designer who was highly technical and I was with the business development manager and they would be talking with the clients and I would feel definitely out of my depth.- [Justin] It was mostly the technical things, especially when I first started.- [Justin] I was very aware that I did not have technical knowledge.- [Justin] It was something that when I was working on the product in the startup, we had another founder who was a developer, so I didn't need to get too much into detail on those things.- [Justin] So then when we started going into, I guess, more meetings and I started to take a more active role, or I was expected to take a more active role in some of those meetings, especially when we were pitching for business, I would feel imposter syndrome.- [Justin] It was very difficult.- [Justin] So for example, we went into a meeting and.- [Justin] Maybe it's not an example of post syndrome.- [Justin] Maybe this was just not great, but the client showed us their product and then on the spot, it was kind of like, well, what would you change?- [Justin] And I'm like, well, fuck, I got to think about that, but you don't have time to think about it.- [Justin] So I'm like, oh, well kind of do this and maybe do that.- [Justin] But yeah, that's the last time I really felt it.- [Justin] Moving into a corporate environment, you don't have one.- [Justin] When I was talking about Spain, it was about getting funding.- [Justin] And then two, pitching for business is another time when I'm getting it.- [Justin] When you're in corporate, you're not going to lose anything.- [Justin] The stakes are just not high enough.- [Justin] And then after experiencing those high stakes, having to make decisions at this micro level, So what I would say, I'm kind of like, well, is it really going to hurt anyone?- [Justin] I'm like, I don't give a fuck.- [Justin] Especially with UI, some of the decisions are so minute and there'll be agonizing over it.- [Justin] And I'm like, it's not that deep.- [Justin] You know what I mean?- [Justin] We can move on.- [Justin] The user won't give a fuck if it's a modal or if it's a full page or whatever.- [Justin] They don't care.- [Justin] So I think, how can I get stressed over that?- [Justin] How can I feel impostor syndrome over that?- [Justin] I won't.- [Justin] I can't.- [Trixie] You touch on a really good point because I think I'm in agreeance of the level of failure.- [Trixie] I'm hypothesizing, but it probably is why you haven't felt it in a really long time in terms of the barrier of how much you have to lose.- [Trixie] in terms of a particular situation will probably set out the terms of how you feel or what kind of imposter syndrome you feel, if any.- [Trixie] Because I think going back to the idea of, well, what do you do about imposter syndrome, right?- [Trixie] Some people feel it, I think it resonates with a lot of people, but what do you do about it?- [Trixie] I previously had the thought of oh you can't do anything about it or you don't do anything about it at that time.- [Trixie] but actually in thinking about it now i feel like using the power of other people really helps.- [Trixie] so for example listening that idea of failure where if you've got a manager which all of us to some degree have a manager you can speak to them about, hey, I feel this level of failure or I think I might fail in this sense and getting their support of how you can mitigate or how you can safely take risks or learn certain things.- [Trixie] I think that might be really helpful to lessen that overall fear of, okay, what's the worst that can happen?- [Trixie] I think that's one thing that kind of mitigates that idea of imposter syndrome, but also I think for me, the idea of just getting feedback from other people, because I think a lot of what imposter syndrome is, is really internal.- [Trixie] And we saw that already before when we were kind of hyping you up, Justin, as well.- [Trixie] If people tell us, no, we're doing the right thing and you're doing a good job.- [Trixie] Completely, that takes the idea of imposter syndrome out of it for me because I'm getting real-life feedback from other people.- [Trixie] that is a personification of the good work that I'm doing rather than letting my inner thoughts of imposter syndrome kind of fester.- [Trixie] So I think it's really helpful a mitigating the idea of failure or what is it that I have to lose versus also just getting one of your peers to tell you how you're actually doing and them telling you what is IRL rather than you just making up these scenarios in your head where you're like, oh, I'm not doing a good job or I think I might fail rather than just letting that kind of sit in your head and make you live in pity city.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Trixie] I think people telling you what the situation is, is probably a positive thing.- [Steve] And both of those are really to do with perspective, right?- [Steve] Justin had the perspective coming from a high stakes arena and that gave him perspective of what he should and shouldn't freak out about.- [Steve] And then getting feedback from other people is also perspective in that the perspective in your mind is what's causing a lot of the stress and anxiety possibly and getting the external perspective helps.- [Steve] And then the third thing I think what Justin, I mean, just reading between the lines does seem to do really well is that he doesn't compare himself to others.- [Steve] He acknowledges when other people may have more experience than him, and maybe Justin can talk to this after this.- [Steve] Your little voice in your head doesn't tell you that, well, I'm not good enough.- [Steve] Your little voice in your head tells you, oh, that guy is more knowledgeable than this, and I'm not.- [Steve] And it ends there.- [Steve] Whereas my conversation with my devil on my shoulder would be like, he's doing that, and you're not doing that, and why aren't you doing that?- [Steve] Why can't you be better?- [Trixie] I'm actually very curious to hear what Justin's little voice in his head says.- [Steve] And they talk about comparison, comparison of the thief of joy, right?- [Steve] And a lot of maybe.- [Steve] how we get these internal conflicting perspectives is that we're comparing.- [Justin] Yeah.- [Justin] Well, I think the quick answer or the simple answer, and this is not just in a work perspective, this is personalities.- [Justin] You can't be everything to everyone personally.- [Justin] Not everyone's going to love you.- [Trixie] I like that.- [Justin] And the same with work, you can't do everything.- [Justin] And to create a great product or to foster a great team is to identify what people do really well and give them the space to execute on that.- [Justin] And I've done this in my own projects currently.- [Justin] If I'm working on something and I'm like, well, I'm not the best illustrator.- [Justin] I can illustrate.- [Justin] I'm quite good, but there's people who can do it better, faster.- [Justin] So I'll just call them in and be like, Hey, can you help me out with this?- [Justin] And then the end product, I didn't do everything.- [Justin] a hundred percent myself is so much fucking better because I got people who are SMEs in whatever they do to help out.- [Justin] And that's why you have a team.- [Justin] You're not an Island, one person working on a whole product.- [Justin] So that's true.- [Justin] I mean, the outcome is all that matters, especially the work perspective.- [Trixie] That visual that you gave in terms of you're not an island, I think that's what imposter syndrome is really.- [Trixie] You're putting yourself on an island where in that island you're alone and you've got your own skills and your own thoughts rather than letting other people either visit that island or having other people within that island.- [Trixie] I think it's a very good visual of what imposter syndrome is.- [Trixie] It's like being stuck on your own island.- [Trixie] And I really like the perspective that you gave in terms of you can't be everything to everyone all at once.- [Trixie] I think I really respect that because I don't think I have that mindset at the moment.- [Trixie] And the people that are amazing leads or are amazing in terms of the thing that I want to aspire to, they are very good at that idea of, well, even if I'm not amazing at that thing, I'm okay with that.- [Trixie] And I think that's a really good, positive mindset to have.- [Steve] I guess it definitely applies to the semantics of what we're defining as imposter syndrome, for sure, and maybe a lot of it's due to perspective.- [Steve] But I also like to think that imposter syndrome, or whatever this anxiety-inducing feeling we get when we feel there's gaps or we're not good enough, is actually not always a terrible thing, right?- [Steve] Trixie, to your point.- [Steve] as long as you feel like it's not debilitating and you can work through it, both of you guys seem to get some kind of adrenaline to kind of just push through, right?- [Steve] And then that's like builds mental resilience, but also it does kind of open you up to what you can improve and what your gaps actually are, which is a really difficult thing for those who are kind of ignorant to their limitations and ignorant to maybe stuff that they're not very good at.- [Steve] And I think part of cognitive behavioral therapy is all about reframing stuff.- [Steve] And I think we don't talk enough about anxiety as a power.- [Steve] We talk about anxiety as it's a deficit to our personality and only strong people and people who know everything and are super confident can become leaders.- [Steve] But it's because I think we don't frame anxiety as a superpower or an opportunity that, hey, this is great as long as it's not debilitating, because it means that you know where you can improve on, you know what you lack.- [Steve] And as long as you don't make it get you down and maybe you see from Justin's lens, right?- [Steve] Like, hey, these people are either very good at what they do or better than me and I'm going to use them to help me out.- [Steve] Or this person is something I aspire to.- [Steve] I can see the gap and now I know what I need to do in order to improve myself.- [Steve] It doesn't have to be a vice, I guess, if you frame it properly.- [Justin] No, definitely.- [Justin] When you're uncomfortable, that can lead to growth.- [Justin] And I question this, I always question this, staying in the same place too long, or I'm always thinking about, am I continuing to grow?- [Justin] Am I just comfortable?- [Justin] And when I see people who've maybe been in the same position a long time, same company a really long time, I wonder why they're there.- [Justin] And when you talk to some of these people, they're like, oh, I'm just comfortable.- [Justin] And I'm like, oh, it's one of those things that grates me so hard because I'm like, are you learning?- [Justin] And then if you're not learning, are you giving that to your team?- [Justin] Are you fostering a culture of mediocrity?- [Steve] Complacency.- [Steve] Yeah.- [Justin] Well, yeah.- [Justin] Complacency, which I guess leads to mediocrity.- [Justin] Yeah.- [Justin] That's something I question as well.- [Steve] My take on that is.- [Steve] in a very large organization like ours, you're going to get a very wide spectrum of people with very different needs.- [Steve] And there was always going to be kind of a chocolate box of different flavors.- [Steve] Some where depending on their life and personal circumstances, being safe and comfortable is actually the highest priority for them.- [Steve] And you're right.- [Steve] It means that on the flip side of that, their capacity to grow or feel uncomfortable, maybe isn't going to supercharge their career, but they're totally okay with that.- [Justin] But that's not where the problem is coming in.- [Justin] It's not that they're okay with it.- [Justin] It's that by you not growing, you're not giving that to the rest of your team.- [Justin] You're not becoming a better designer and therefore improving the team or by influence, by experience.- [Justin] That's where I think it becomes an issue because it's not just a personal choice.- [Justin] It affects the wider team and the product that you're working on.- [Steve] It affects the wider team.- [Steve] Yeah.- [Trixie] So I think we did a really great job of outlining various examples of imposter syndrome and what we think it is within this group chat scenario.- [Trixie] We had some relatively beneficial kind of ways of dealing with it, at least from our own contexts.- [Trixie] So I want to get the gauge from the both of you.- [Trixie] What have you learned about imposter syndrome in just talking about it amongst the three of us?- [Trixie] Is it a good thing?- [Trixie] Is it a bad thing?- [Trixie] Is it something that is dependent on what the situation is?- [Trixie] What is the thing that you've learned about imposter syndrome, kind of just talking about it amongst us?- [Steve] So my take is it's all very nuanced and I know this is a cop-out question.- [Steve] When it's to do with self-doubting despite you being a high achiever or possibly the overachiever, a lot of that stems with perspective and how you need to get a broader perspective to get a more real take.- [Steve] Another part of it is to do with framing it as hopefully something that you don't see as an overwhelming feeling of inaction because you don't think you're good enough, but reframing that as now I know what my gaps are and I'm going to work harder because I'm at that really uncomfortable level.- [Steve] And the third takeaway for me is I really got to stop comparing myself to others because to Justin's point, you can't be good at everything and you can only please some people some of the time.- [Steve] And the better I think I can take that into my stride, not just in professional, but in my personal kind of view, I think the less likely you're going to get into this spiral of self-doubt.- [Trixie] Nice.- [Justin] I think what I learned, especially from something you said, Trixie, and it was around validation.- [Justin] And I think if it's true imposter syndrome, how can you support people and give them the validation that they need?- [Justin] I think people need different forms of validation.- [Justin] For example, words like, Oh, you're great.- [Justin] You're amazing.- [Justin] They don't do too much for me.- [Justin] There's other ways I seek validation or need validation.- [Justin] So I think it's important to, I guess, identify what's going on, whether it is imposter syndrome and what they will need to overcome that, what form of validation, or whether it's a legitimate skill gap that is leading them to feel deficient and how are the ways they can address that.- [Justin] that'll help them move forward.- [Trixie] Yeah, awesome.- [Trixie] I think those key takeaways from the both of you are super unique in terms of what you kind of took away from this conversation.- [Trixie] I think for me, it's an interesting one because I feel like the idea that you brought up, Justin, about failure and possibly this idea of imposter syndrome is just dependent on how much failure there is in one particular scenario.- [Trixie] Like how bad And can a situation really be, and if you fail at this one particular scenario, is there no other way that you could get support or try again?- [Trixie] Is there ways that you can kind of mitigate the risk at that time so you don't necessarily feel like everything is on the line from a perspective of, do I feel like I'm not qualified for something?- [Trixie] Ergo, I will fail at it because I don't feel like I have a specific skill set that I need to have at this one time.- [Trixie] I think the idea of failure really does kind of correlate with how much you feel this imposter syndrome.- [Trixie] So either reframing that idea or finding ways to mitigate that or get the support around you of how can I safely either take risks or how can I learn in a safe kind of environment.- [Trixie] I think for me that's a really good takeaway and also the idea of you can't be everything to everyone all at once.- [Trixie] I think that's a really powerful kind of idea and statement that I really want to incorporate in the way that I do things.- [Trixie] So, yeah.- [Steve] Maybe it's not fake it till you make it because that doesn't ring true anymore.- [Justin] Oh, I hate that.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Steve] Maybe it's more.- [Steve] keep going, you'll either make it or you won't.- [Steve] And that's okay.- [Justin] Yeah, yeah.- [Justin] I love that.- [Steve] And that's okay.- [Steve] But just keep going.- [Trixie] Yeah.- [Trixie] And I mean, it's fine because how bad could it be?- [Trixie] If you fail, it's a learning opportunity.- [Trixie] It's a learning experience.- [Trixie] And in the context of at least what we're doing, maybe it's a little bit different when the stakes are a lot higher.- [Trixie] It's okay.- [Trixie] Even if one of the people in my team, if they fail, it's never going to be really that bad because there's other people who are accountable for the risks that you take and also providing a safe environment for everyone to learn and grow, I think.- [Trixie] It's okay from that sort of perspective.- [Trixie] So continue and feel that way and that's okay.- [Trixie] It's just, yeah, if you fail, that's okay too.- [Steve] Group hug.- [Trixie] There you go.- [Trixie] This is very therapeutic from a perspective of just talking, just the things that float around in our brains.- [Trixie] And it's really great talking to you guys about it.- [Steve] Yeah, I wasn't sure where we're going with this because to be honest, this has been much less structured than normal procedures, but it has been really enjoyable.- [Justin] Yeah.- [Justin] It's always good to just talk shit.- [Trixie] And it's valuable as well, because I think in the most part, generally a lot of people want to know about us.- [Trixie] I think for me, at least, the episodes that I most resonate with is learning in an intimate way the people that we work with.- [Trixie] So I get to learn more about you guys and that's always a benefit.- [Steve] Yeah, and I'm pretty sure Justin broke the record of the number of F-bombs he dropped per episode.- [Justin] We've started bleeping, so...