Hurt Feelings with Steven Hsieh

Whether we like it or not, the fight-or-flight response is coded in our genetics and not all of us are well-equipped to deal with these anxiety-induced feelings.

Join Trixie and Justin as they unpack traumatic workplace experiences from fellow co-host Steve’s past and how he's overcoming them.

We'll explore dark spirals of negative thoughts due to (not so constructive) design critiques,  seeking professional help from workplace assistance programs and finding new behavioural tools to deal with the ups and downs of work and life.

Find out more at designtherapy.com.au

Transcript

Hurt Feelings with Steven Hsieh

Justin Hall: [00:00:00] Hey, I'm Justin. 

Steven Hsieh: Hey, I'm Steve. 

Trixie Johnston: Hey, I'm Trixie and welcome to Design Therapy. Every month we're chatting to our friends in the design community, and they'll share personal stories, the careers in tech, and what's happening in the design industry. 

Justin Hall: This month we'll be chatting to our very own Steve Shea about his crippling need for external validation, how it's impacted his life and career, and how he's learned to deal with it.

Justin Hall: Spoiler alert, not very well.

Justin Hall: Well, we've made it to season two, Steve. Despite your best efforts to keep us from making it there, we're here . 

Steven Hsieh: Hey, hang on, hang on. You're making it sound like I'd begrudgingly accepted that we had to kick off this season two. That's, that's not the case. That's not the case. 

Justin Hall: All I ever hear from you is, oh, I'm a dad.

Justin Hall: Oh, I've got a clean diapers. Oh, I can't record.

Steven Hsieh: No, just, just [00:01:00] for the record, I've been very proud. Of everything we, well, let's say you've achieved for design therapy, . 

Justin Hall: I'll take it, I'll take it. 

Steven Hsieh: And there is nothing to say that I am not excited or motivated. You know, there is a belly of fire that I feel there is a lot more stories that we can share, and this season we're gonna inject our podcast.

Steven Hsieh: Renewed energy with our new co-host, Trixie Trixie. Welcome. 

Trixie Johnston: Hey guys, how are you? 

Justin Hall: Hey, Trix. Glad to have you on. 

Trixie Johnston: Thank you. Thank you. I love what you guys did in the first season, and so, you know, I managed to claw my way from, you know, half of my own episode where I had to share it with my ball and chain, but now I've clawed into the inner sanctum of design therapy and yeah, I'm, I'm excited to give some perspective and overshare a little bit and add a little bit.

Trixie Johnston: Uh, into the podcast. So great to be sharing that with you. 

Justin Hall: Well, [00:02:00] speaking of trauma, so Trixie, one of the most important things you need to know as a co-host of design therapy is what we call the trauma axis and this is how we measure topics for our podcast, what we want to talk about. So, We measure it on a line of relevancy to design.

Justin Hall: Of course, this is a design podcast, but what's more important is the level of juice. Juice. So how juicy is the subject and how much trauma can we squeeze out of our poor unsuspecting guests? . Do you feel like you are up to that challenge? The squeeze? 

Trixie Johnston: Absolutely. I mean, I think in hearing about, you know, your squeeze and your.

Trixie Johnston: Justin. Um, and I, you know, I gave you a little bit my juicy squeeze, uh, from my own interview , uh, relationship. 

Steven Hsieh: We, using the words, we're using the words or incorrectly. Now this is getting off topic. 

Justin Hall: Love some bodily fluid sharing. That's great. 

Trixie Johnston: Okay. Maybe not, maybe not , but anyway. Anyway, so, you know, we've heard about your, [00:03:00]your juice, your trauma.

Trixie Johnston: Uh, we gave you a little bit of mine. But now I feel like we are missing, you know, the final bit of that trauma juice. Steve, we're gonna be talking about you today. 

Steven Hsieh: Yeah, I feel like I've been, uh, talking the talk throughout, obviously season one and putting up a front as if I'm this guy who is really, you know, open-minded, empathetic to whatever story comes the.

Steven Hsieh: And now it's time to give back. Is this guy, wait, , now it's, he's done. Now it's time to give back. 

Justin Hall: I love hearing the way you see yourself, Steve . Open. Empathetic. Oh, what a man. 

Steven Hsieh: But no, it's, I'm very happy to share. I think all of us have points in their life where they felt stressed and overwhelmed, and I'm certainly no different.

Steven Hsieh: So I think today I'll, I'll share a little bit of that and let my therapists and co-hosts maybe to help me through the events of my past life. 

Trixie Johnston: Look, I'm not gonna [00:04:00] guarantee that we're licensed for this cuz we're not. Definitely not. But I mean, as friends, this is definitely a safe space amongst us. 

Justin Hall: Speak for yourself,

Justin Hall: Speak for yourself. 

Trixie Johnston: Oh, anyway, I, I'll at least if Justin's getting too, too rowdy, we'll make sure to edit him out cuz you know I'm here now so I can help with. 

Justin Hall: So Steve, you actually we're, we're talking about like you didn't share any juice, but you did allude to a little bit of juice in our first season.

Justin Hall: You were talking about a particularly frightful project, uh, that you worked on, and I guess the way that affected your mental health. So in the, uh, tradition of, of therapy, how do you feel about that and can you tell us a bit more? 

Steven Hsieh: Well, An interesting period of my work life. We, you know, had undertaken this mammoth nine month project of redesigning the most visited page, [00:05:00] you know, on our app.

Steven Hsieh: And at that point in time we were in staff pilot and we were feeling really sure about this new direction we were going. You know, it was like a bold new step. Yes, we had to make trade offs between, um, you know, limited resources and time, but we felt like we were making the right. And so when the phone came from our GM to say, guys, we're, we're getting some pretty pointy feedback from our executives.

Steven Hsieh: Things like, doesn't like it. Hates it. That threw everyone off. And it wasn't until maybe a week later, cuz initially you were like, oh, well, what's, what's one person's feedback? And, and that night I kind of brushed it off. I had a chat to my wife and said, look, you know, the exec wasn't really happy about it, but I get it.

Steven Hsieh: But I still feel like, you know, it's okay. It's okay. But a week later I found myself into kind of like the pits of despair. [00:06:00] I was struggling emotionally and my confidence was shot. I could just slowly feel like my body was tightening up and whatever is the opposite of flow and thrive. I was like, Far from that, the pits 

Justin Hall: of despair.

Justin Hall: Is that, um, is that from the never ending story? Like isn't that the, the, the horse sinks into the tar pit? Is that the pit of despair? You're, you're talking about, I'm just imagining you sinking into this. 

Steven Hsieh: You, you are forcing me to admit that. I've never watched that film. You, you, 

Trixie Johnston: I can just imagine Steve, like my visuals are Steve in a cave in the fatal position.

Trixie Johnston: Because of this feedback. 

Steven Hsieh: Yeah, and it's not unlike that. It's really weird. Like, you guys know me in a professional setting. Like how would you describe, I guess like the way I behave usually , 

Justin Hall: Trixie, you can, you can say, that's a loaded question. , [00:07:00]

Trixie Johnston: I mean like on the general sense, right? You're pretty positive and.

Trixie Johnston: You're bouncy and, and spritely. That, that's what I would say. You're a sp spritely fellow. 

Steven Hsieh: Spritely, sprightly energetic fellow wouldn't take that time. I, I was the opposite of that. I was the opposite and whatever, whatever Spitefulness was coming through me was all very staged during that period of time.

Steven Hsieh: It was very forced. And this impacted, you know, my personal life too, where at that point when, say my wife asked, you know, if we wanted to do this or that on the weekend, my. Natural reaction was to say no. Like I wasn't excited to do anything. I was in a place where making decisions was hard, and even putting words together became like a real challenge and.

Steven Hsieh: I slowly but surely started to realize like, no, this is, like, this is not 

Justin Hall: good. But why did this affect you so badly? Like in, in the grand scheme, I'm thinking this is the design of [00:08:00] one page in the app over a career of, you know, how many years. Why this one? Why? Why is this affecting you so 

Steven Hsieh: much? Well, to be honest, like I'm not sure why this affected me more than say other times in my past.

Steven Hsieh: You know, see I was in London once and I didn't have a job for like three and a half months. I was eating away my savings, and it was to the point where I probably had less than like 500 pounds in my bank account. So a couple of more rents paid and I would've been absolutely broke. . That was a pretty low point in my life.

Steven Hsieh: Like I, I was again, in pits of despair and, and really questioning about who I am. But this time around, I think the impact to my personal life was that, you know, I had, I was in a different place, you know, I have a family. I felt there was more pressure for me to succeed in my, in my role as a, as a leader in design.

Steven Hsieh: And I think that definitely rolled into a bit of a snowball of, of [00:09:00] expectation, which I felt I did in me. 

Justin Hall: See, when you referred to London and the pits of despair, I was now imagining you as like little Oliver, like, can I please have some more, sir? But, but now you're telling me you're like, Mord from The Simpsons.

Justin Hall: You're like, so will somebody please think of the children ? Like is is that where you, 

Steven Hsieh: you I, I don't know. I just feel like there was more expectation, like this was like a big project, like this is a flagship project and so it was harder to reconcile the fact that. You know, there were things that we could have done better, and maybe I didn't do enough to play my part, but ultimately I felt, what I realized is it shouldn't matter what one person thinks.

Steven Hsieh: That made me start to unpack more over the last few years about why some things trigger me to go into this spiral and a bit of a journey. I feel like we're 

Trixie Johnston: getting to the crux of the issue here, right? [00:10:00] One thing that you know, really surprised me, and this probably comes towards more of, you know, how you present yourself, is your importance for like that external validation.

Trixie Johnston: Um, and it seems like from the story that you've kind of told one negative experience where you know, someone of authority has told you, you know, you're not doing the right thing. That seems to be what sets you off to spiral. The only experience that you've had with that, or is that something that you feel like you've had or carried through 

Steven Hsieh: your life?

Steven Hsieh: Well, it's funny, right? Like you are right. I think I came to a conclusion as I was trying to confront this issue that it is absolutely ridiculous for a single person's feedback. Define how I felt like that felt really weird and stupid. Like it just didn't make sense. And when I thought about it was if I looked back [00:11:00] at my upbringing and the way that I was raised, the way that my sister and I were.

Steven Hsieh: A lot of our success or how success was determined for us through our parents was whether or not we achieved a good outcome. And if we didn't, for instance, get good grades or if we didn't like succeed or win. It was like automatically, like you didn't do well even, even if we worked really hard for that.

Steven Hsieh: And so I do wonder now whether some of this external validation or the lack thereof, which triggers some kind of emotional. Aggressive emotional responses from a lot of this understanding that, look, success for me was never, it never came from inside me. It was always defined by those around me. 

Justin Hall: But why, why success?

Justin Hall: Why is this so important 

Steven Hsieh: to you? That's a good question. If I keep going down this path, right? If I [00:12:00] think about this and I ask, look, is this. That is driving me. And I actually don't think it's success cuz I never had like a very defined ambition or goal when it comes to like, what I think is successful.

Steven Hsieh: And I actually think what it is is like this, like real desire to please and this real desire to seek acknowledgement, to make people happy, to get them to see, hey Steve, like you've done a great job. And to feel like I've, I've, I've given them some kind of something of. Does that make sense? 

Justin Hall: Yeah, I'm, I'm wondering where that comes from.

Justin Hall: Cuz I feel like that's, I'm, I'm playing like armchair psychologist here, , but Yeah. But yeah, I'm like that, that sounds like it comes from a low sense of self-worth, Steve. Um, and, 

Steven Hsieh: and I think, yeah, I think there's a some, some of that for sure. Some of that for sure. I think it's actually probably a pretty valid way to put it.

Steven Hsieh: You know, if I think about a lot of how this all ties together, my. Inherent need to [00:13:00] please and to make, make people happy, and where the external validation from someone else is required in order for me to check that box. I think it's all really interrelated and I even see myself, you know, like in the past when, say I've had to ask for things that I.

Steven Hsieh: It doesn't come naturally to me. It comes from a sense of, I dunno if I deserve this. And I do think you've probably hit the nail on the, in the head is that a lot of this part is probably how I failed to value myself in the past or not been in a place to, to recognize my worth, which has probably led to all sorts of like, you know, a lot of these like issues, uh, growing.

Trixie Johnston: I feel like Steve, I've learned, you know, from a very short time, like we've known each other obviously for a couple of years now. Even in this conversation, I've learned quite a lot about you. I think I'm a very visual person, and this is how I [00:14:00] kind of liken things like in my head from the way that you've just described everything from, you know, what you respond to.

Trixie Johnston: Visually, like to me, you're, you're a bit of a golden retriever puppy in that you place a lot of. Your own worth and a lot of your own happiness in the way that others treat you, which it's a really interesting concept. And even though people might have different ways of like interpreting, you know, other people's feedback or how other people communicate to them, I think personally that's where you are.

Steven Hsieh: Look, that is not a bad analogy. I, I much rather be a dog person than a cat person. Maybe more. Then I feel like he's definitely more felin, more feline in nature. 

Justin Hall: A cat that is the nastiest thing you've ever said to me, Steven, how? How 

Trixie Johnston: dare you. I mean, we come from a pretty deep. Kaist Dark place, at least from what I can hear.

Trixie Johnston: And and what you've told [00:15:00] us today, which is great that you can share that with us, but coming out from the other side, what did you do to get out? Or are you still in it? Where are you in this journey? Well, I think 

Steven Hsieh: one of the things I've learned now is that it's gonna be hard to change fundamentally who I am.

Steven Hsieh: A lot of it is like my nature and no matter how my, my environment was growing up, you know, it was what. However, saying that though, the fact that I feel like I can actively talk about this and have tools I have to kind of pull myself away from the abbu, uh, more and more these days when it does happen, is that I actually sought help because at that point in time when I realized that whatever I was going through was impacting more than my work life, it was extending to my personal life.

Steven Hsieh: I felt like I had to draw the line somewhere because now I've. You know, two kids and I've got a wife and it made me feel so guilty that I wasn't present. Even like hanging out with them on the weekends. It was not fair for them, and it was definitely not fair for me. So Asha went and sought help. [00:16:00] Where we work, we have like an excellent program.

Steven Hsieh: It's called Employment Assistant Program, and it's completely anonymous. I heard that you can actually get professional help or paid for and it was something I've never actually tried. Like I've done relationship counselings in the past, but nothing to talk about work and the struggles around, you know, the stress I had around it and it was really eye-opening.

Steven Hsieh: So I guess 

Justin Hall: what gave you the confidence to use the work system? Because when I think of work systems like that, or work programs, I have a lot of skepticism. Yeah. Um, you know, whether they're, whether they're quality or, you know, whether what I say is gonna, you know, spread or how that's gonna affect me professionally.

Justin Hall: I know they're probably unfounded, but that's a lot of skepticism I have. Like, how did you get over that? Or why seek help through a work program and not independently? What gave you the confidence? 

Steven Hsieh: Well, I don't know if it was confidence or more. I was, I, I had nothing left [00:17:00] to try, like I. I had talked to my friends and uh, you know, I had, I had talked to the people that I felt that normally I would get help from.

Steven Hsieh: Like, sometimes, you know, a lot of things, you talk to your friends and you can kind of process it. I felt like I was hitting a wall and so it was more coming out of, well, I, I dunno what else to do. I still wasn't yet very comfortable to actually be totally upfront with my own manager, which, Reflecting on it, you know, I felt like I, I wish I had a bit more courage to say exactly what was going on, and so I felt, well, what, what I've got to lose at this point.

Steven Hsieh: I might as well give it a go and, you know, talk to my wife. She was like very supportive and I didn't know what to expect. There's just like a, a number you call and they kind of do a bit of a screener. And then they match [00:18:00] you with like, I think a couple of counselors who they think they need help and it's all done through the system and you can go in and book a time yourself.

Steven Hsieh: So 

Trixie Johnston: from that point, What did you actually experience? Because I think I'm very much the same as Justin, right? I have a very low level knowledge of, you know, the systems around, like support and help because, and this is not an ad for our workplace, right? But you know, in smaller places or even like agencies and.

Trixie Johnston: They have hr, but they don't specifically have systems that look after mental health and supporting you through that. What did you experience? I 

Justin Hall: feel like psychological safety is like a dirty word, in like every other workplace , like I feel like it's like the first time I heard it was it ComBank? 

Steven Hsieh: Like, but it's still funny, right?

Steven Hsieh: Like we talk about it a lot. We have, you know, our u k day. It's, it's the fact that none of. Well, now that I've gone through it, I know, but the fact that you, you actually [00:19:00] don't know what to expect when you go and reach out to a place like this, just shows how much of a stigma it still is and how little training we have when it comes to, for instance, like understanding what type of help we can get.

Steven Hsieh: But, uh, , it was actually pretty funny cuz I guess the first counselor that I talked to, uh, he had a method called emd. I think eye movement, something therapy and it just did not work for me. It was it, I think, I think the science behind it was something like, you know when you are in like REM sleep or deep sleep, your eyes move side to side and based on that, like he uses a finger that you have to follow on.

Steven Hsieh: And this was done during covid, so you had to follow the screen. You had to like go left, run, left, right, and, and then talk. So this was remote? This is remote. And then you had to like talk through your trauma. And apparently the, the fact that you are like engaging this deepest sense [00:20:00] of memory was supposed to help you, I guess, process any trauma that you might have.

Steven Hsieh: And at that look like, I don't wanna, because now that I've talked to my sister and other people who are, you know, clinical psychologists, Apparently a lot of it is found on hard signs, but for me it just didn't work. It fell flat. I thought it was ridiculous and I couldn't understand how this is helping.

Steven Hsieh: I just felt like I was , I was being played a little . And so after two sessions I was like, no, this isn't for me. Two sessions, 

Justin Hall: I didn't two, you went through it twice. you, you were really desperate at that point, right? You were like, 

Steven Hsieh: hypnotized beauty. I was, fuck, whatever. Like again, right? I'm coming. I'm coming from a place where the only way to go is up.

Steven Hsieh: okay? I'm very nice, man. But you know, again, something you learn, right? Like it doesn't matter if it doesn't work the first time. You have to find [00:21:00] the right therapist or counselor for yourself. And so then that first approach just, just fell flat for me. And it did take a bit of encouragement for my sister to continue looking because I think when it comes to mental health, it is a very personal thing.

Steven Hsieh: And it's kind of like finding a good friend, right? Especially as you get older, you are just gonna be able to connect with everybody you meet on the street. And so it was a little bit like, She gave me a bit of guidance in terms of looking for like a slightly different therapy called, um, cognitive Behavior Therapy or C B T, and I kind of just went into her head first and found someone through the program who focused on that.

Justin Hall: So tell us, tell us about C B T. I know nothing about C B T. Mm-hmm. So 

Steven Hsieh: the basic idea is, explain 

Justin Hall: it to me like I'm five Steve . 

Steven Hsieh: The most simplistic way I think about it and look I'm no expert into it, is, um, We, we have like a fight or flight response and we feel like we're in danger. Now, [00:22:00] anything can trigger, trigger that.

Steven Hsieh: For me, obviously it's about not receiving external validation triggers that response. For me. I go into survival mode and I start telling myself all of these things as a justification or reasons why I didn't get that validation. I so much sought after. And when I started telling myself this, I also started to look for signs to confirm my biases.

Steven Hsieh: You know, I would, you started spiraling. I started spiraling. Like if Justin says something nasty to me, I'd be like, oh, Justin's right, cuz I'm not, cause I'm not a great designer, and so on and so forth. And when I, for instance, like if, if we're planning for the weekend, I say, That same voice then reinforces me.

Steven Hsieh: Be like, you're not in a good shape. Look how you are not making decisions to try and get yourself out of this. [00:23:00] So any opportunity that that reinforces this behavior just kind of like drives you deeper and deeper down this path. And what Cognitive Behavior Therapy basically gives you some tools to, I think, limit the harm by asking yourself, well, is it true?

Steven Hsieh: Mm. So you sound really 

Justin Hall: self-aware, like the way you described that you're very aware of what are your triggers, how it affects you, and then you're saying the C B T therapy gives you tools to deal with that. But where did you gain, or when did you gain that awareness? Was that part of the C B T 

Steven Hsieh: therapy?

Steven Hsieh: It's part of it because I think. You know, it wasn't actually the, the actual therapy sessions actually didn't help me all that much cuz you know, they go through things. There's a, there's a whole bunch of techniques. Some of it involves mindfulness, like just staying present and therefore you're not letting your voice in your head overwhelm you by focusing on the present.

Steven Hsieh: Meaning like focusing on little things, the [00:24:00] floor beneath your feet and the chair behind your back. And so you're go into a state where only the present matter and less so about the floors in your. There are other parts of it where it's just openly allowing yourself to question objectively whether those things you're feeling are true.

Steven Hsieh: So when I say that I'm not a good designer and that I feel everyone is judging me, have you seen evidence of that or is it in your head? I mean, 

Justin Hall: maybe one or two other. one out of the territory. 

Steven Hsieh: Yeah. Right. May maybe one or two are two, but like objectively finding a way to. And I think there's a sl, like an array of things where, and even now, right?

Steven Hsieh: Like when I find myself spiraling, having some kind of mantra to remind yourself that what's going on in your head. Like asking yourself, look, if you're telling yourself how unworthy you are, is it helpful? And you're trying to find ways to break that circuit off spiraling. 

Justin Hall: So I feel like what you're mentioning.[00:25:00]

Justin Hall: It's very difficult, right? Because you're saying these thoughts you had like, oh, I'm, I'm a crap designer. Everyone's judging me. Design can be so subjective and I feel like a lot of designers, like myself included, I say I feel like a lot, but you know, I've experienced this, but it's very difficult to be objective, I feel in our.

Justin Hall: Because everyone is a designer in their head and everyone has opinions, and knowing what to keep and use and what to dismiss is very murky in my experience. Anyway. Tris, how do you feel? 

Trixie Johnston: So for me, it really depends on what kind of feedback I receive or what kind of messaging that comes through, right?

Trixie Johnston: Because from my perspective, unless it's something that I'm, I don't have confidence in myself in, [00:26:00] then that really touches a nerve, and that's where I go into the very similar spaces you write. I know already if it's something that I'm pretty confident at and I receive negative feedback, you know, I can back myself and, and really understand all of the ways that I can counter, um, the messaging that I receive.

Trixie Johnston: But if it's something that I'm personally feeling just really sensitive about, that I know that I'm lacking or I need to improve more. That's where I get really sensitive and I spiral very much the same as you 

Steven Hsieh: do. But I just wanna make it very clear, right? Like when I recognize that this is something else altogether, was the fact that when it comes to say critique on say design or experience that I've come up, I don't have any issue that you have feedback on work that I have, cuz that's part of my role is to gather research and data.

Steven Hsieh: See, See what's working, [00:27:00] see what's not, and then iterating on that. Right. I think he's 

Trixie Johnston: confident about his skills, folks, . 

Steven Hsieh: But it, but it's not even that 

Justin Hall: allegedly, 

Steven Hsieh: allegedly . If it, if it was designed critique, I feel like that's, for me is like a different mental bucket for me. Cuz I could approach that and it doesn't matter what, what flack I hear it.

Steven Hsieh: You know, like say if we were in customer testing and we hear some really bad stuff about my work, I'm like, well, I'm really glad I heard that. You know, I, I feel like I can improve this design, but this is something else altogether, and this is why I think I was more interested in unpacking it for myself, right?

Steven Hsieh: Like, the fact that it didn't make sense that something, and, and the feedback wasn't a very detailed, and I knew it was subjective. That was. Triggered me to set me into this spiral was when I realized, no, this felt like a different issue. It wasn't that I felt like what I came up with was being attacked.

Steven Hsieh: This felt [00:28:00] much deeper than that. In hindsight, I think I've come to realize that it obviously wasn't about the specific feedback, but the deeper sense of failure. I think that was triggered from that feedback that led me to. And I could see these dots being connected throughout my life where there wasn't, it wasn't always the same event that would trigger me into this spiral, but what connected it was the sense of failure and the sense of not achieving expectations that I've put on 

Trixie Johnston: myself.

Trixie Johnston: This seems like a pretty good session of therapy already, cuz it feels like you've impacted quite a lot of things. Going back to C B T, you know, where are you with that? Did that work? So I 

Steven Hsieh: think it did because, so number one, I think I have a lot more awareness of the physical symptoms of when [00:29:00] I start feeling stressed, how my body reacts to stress.

Steven Hsieh: Like little things like tingling the habits at the top of my head or chest tightness that happens. I'm now much more aware of when that. And when that does happen, I, I start asking myself some of these questions that C B T encourages you to. It's like, well, whatever you're feeling, you know, and the questions and the things that you're telling yourself, is it helpful and is it true?

Steven Hsieh: It also tells me that I need to take a break, for instance, to go and try and stay present by going for a walk, maybe going for an. These are all very, I think, practical things you can do to distract your own brain to make it feel like you're in a safe place Again, cuz remember, all of this is triggered from a place where I feel like I go into survival mode.

Steven Hsieh: So just like my voice tells me to go into a fetal position in survival mode after. Somewhere to [00:30:00]tell my body and my mind that, hey, you are, you're in a safe space, and that's almost like the first thing you need to do. So I feel I have more tools to deal with these symptoms at an earlier time, before I start truly sparring.

Steven Hsieh: And it has helped quite a lot in that sense. Just being aware. Hey, whatever you're telling yourself might not always be true. Has been like a huge, has been a huge deal for me. 

Justin Hall: So it sounds like you've learned a lot about yourself through C B T therapy, and you've kind of traced back the source of a lot of.

Justin Hall: I, I guess this pattern of behavior to, to your youth and your upbringing and the style of upbringing you had. You're a father yourself with two young boys. How are you gonna do things differently? I mean, how, how are you gonna create a psychologically safe environment for the [00:31:00] children, Steve? 

Steven Hsieh: So, I think my kids are pretty lucky.

Steven Hsieh: You know, the fact that I'm here talking to you guys about what I've gone through and the things I've. Daddy's woke . Yeah. I wouldn't go that 

Justin Hall: far. . 

Steven Hsieh: Well, it already puts in my such a big advantage and say, you know, how I was raised in, I don't blame my parents. It, it was like the fault of the system and when they were raised.

Steven Hsieh: And I think the best thing I can do is to not push my own belief system of right and wrong onto them. I mean, let them figure out what, what works for them and I'll just be there to support them as much as I. 

Trixie Johnston: So even if they don't turn into mini tennis champions, you said you're gonna be all right with that.

Trixie Johnston: Yes, Steve? 

Steven Hsieh: Yeah, I, as long as I feel like they can come to me and tell me how they're feeling and they don't feel like they are judged in any way, I think. I'd be a pretty proud dad to be like, you know when Leon's feeling pretty [00:32:00]down the dance, he can come to me, talk to me about it, knowing that there's no judgment.

Steven Hsieh: Aw. . . That's cute. 

Trixie Johnston: So Steve, you've taken us through a really traumatic event that had taken you to a pretty dark place. Then you spoke about some, you know, what you did to get you out of that deep, dark hole, that caugh space that you were in. And the type of person that you wanna take out of it. So knowing what you know, what is your parting message to our listeners?

Trixie Johnston: Well, I think 

Steven Hsieh: if there's one thing that I learned from myself is that finding help doesn't have to be so difficult if you are willing to the open minded about it. And so while not everyone's gonna go through what I went through, I do think that you need to look around you to see what kind of support that you have that's available to you, and kind of in my [00:33:00] in instance, right?

Steven Hsieh: Like if it doesn't work the first time, it doesn't mean that you give up on it because I think you really have to find the right approach that suits your personality. And while I'm still very far away from, I think coming to a place where I'm completely at peace with who I am, it has been very positive to at least start that journey.

Justin Hall: Well, Steve, thank you so much for, you know, putting yourself on the spotlight and letting us squeeze a bit of that juice out. And Trixie, thank you also for joining. How was your first episode? How's it feel to be the juicer, not the juice. 

Trixie Johnston: Very traumatic. I feel like I need to do something really positive.

Trixie Johnston: Um, I don't know. Look at pictures of, of babies or, or puppies. Uh, cuz it feels like. We went somewhere really deep. I know a lot, a lot more about you now, [00:34:00] Steve, but I also think, you know, the conversation was very useful and, and timely and very important. So thanks Steve for sharing that with us. 

Steven Hsieh: Ah, look, I'm not stuck here with you guys.

Steven Hsieh: You guys are stuck here with me. . I feel like I did unpack a lot off my chest too. You know, this is, this is exactly why I. Jess and I started this and we're really glad that you are now part of the jet.